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Monday, November 2nd 2009, 12:02am

What KDE needs for going UP

Hello,

I am a long time user of KDE. After a short evaluation of KDE 4.X, I lost my interest in it.
I find incredibly awkward the direction where KDE is heading to. I think that KDE is not the only DE which goes the same route.
Please remember I'm expressing my personal ideas; I am just a user, but please READ and COMMENT.

1) Widget/plasmoids are nice, but I don't NEED THEM. WHO does?
2) Look&feel is important, but not my number one.
3) The fact that I have the same wallpaper on all the desktops or not, it really doesn't impress me.
and the list can go on indefinitely.

What I think that most users NEED and EXPECT from a desktop environment is integration:

1) I would give the top 10 plasmoids against a one-click file sharing action. I never managed to make a samba share only through KDE, without having to manually edit and fiddle the configuration files. This is plain LAME.
2) Please don't push applications forward only because they are KDE based. Take the best ideas, reimplement them, and win market share (KDE and Linux, too). Example - sorry to say, I never used konqueror as a web browser. Why? Dunno, everybody else uses firefox/opera, so why shouldn't I? So, if 98% of KDE users don't use konqueror as a web browser, please get rid of this functionality. It is a PITY to keep it and spend precious time.
3) File browser - the cornerstone of any DE. Konqueror is a good one, but far from being what I would call perfect:
- folder size display missing ( I don't need folder size calculated with 100% accuracy, so a simple caching algorithm is more than enough). I still use "du" for calculating folder size. Why? Because konqueror doesn't offer me anything better. On the contrary.
- image and file preview in general is horrible;
- icons and buttons layout and ergonomy is lacking a professional view (just try to switch from detailed list to image view - I have to keep the left button pressed for a good second in order to get the scroll down list);
4) Look and feel
- please do not limit the users in having icons and fonts and whatever limited with no reason. Why can i select only tiny/small/big/huge/whatever? What if I want to use konqueror as a media browser on my TV (which I do)? Oops, maximum font size is 18. Why, if I may ask?
- icons and themes provided by enthusiasts are nice. Except that they are not professionals, are just enthusiasts.
5) Command line plague
- I would consider a DE mature when no command line fiddling is needed for the average user. To share a folder. To sync my iPOD. To view a folder size. To launch an application. To enable/disable my USB speakers. To kill a process. And the list goes on.
This is to gain the big masses used to work with the mouse.
6) Front end transparency
Graphical front ends to important applications lack clarity for experienced users. I sometimes do something in the command line because I really don't know what the ticking of a well hidden check box does. Could we have sort of logging utility that translates any GUI action (when using a utility/administration tool) into the corresponding command?

These are just a few ideas that I think are COMPLETELY overlooked in the favour of the bell and whistles. Please let me know your comments and please remember: integration means unity of thinking and action, not nicely drawn weather and stock market plasmoids on my screen - let the enthusiasts do that.

Thank you all !

2

Monday, November 2nd 2009, 12:21am

One thing which I forgot: why can't I set the size of the icons in the system tray applet to any size I want and have them automatically rearrange (or not) in several rows depending on their size (I think because the time was spent thinking about plasmoids)? Did you see how nice and small and neat they are on Windows? And PRACTICAL, especially when they are many and I don't want to hide them.
And not to mention the office and productivity applications and their integration within the DE, which is a separate story by itself: how easy is to call through a VOIP softphone someone from my contacts? Or send him a fax (well if you don't have Linux support for your fax modem drivers it would be REALLY difficult)? Or start a chat window with him?

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "realn" (Nov 2nd 2009, 9:51am)


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Monday, November 2nd 2009, 11:36pm

Quoted

1) I would give the top 10 plasmoids against a one-click file sharing action.
I have never managed to get this to work either!

Quoted

So, if 98% of KDE users don't use konqueror as a web browser, please get rid of this functionality. It is a PITY to keep it and spend precious time.
KHTML (Konqueror's browsing backend) is the basis of Safari (the main browser on the Mac, and a popular browser on many other systems). WIthout the development on KHTML, a lot of devices would be the poorer. Huge chunks are incorporated into mobile 'phones etc. Given this development, including it in KDE is relatively trivial.

It also has a few nice touches that are useful for advanced users / developers, notably the ability to change the identification text sent to the server, for when developers have deliberately blocked Linux systems or limited their userbase to IE for example.

It's also, in the current market, important to have as part of a system instant access to the web.

Quoted

- folder size display missing ( I don't need folder size calculated with 100% accuracy, so a simple caching algorithm is more than enough). I still use "du" for calculating folder size. Why? Because konqueror doesn't offer me anything better. On the contrary.
Folder size is available in properties, but can take a while to calculate - especially with multiple links and subfolders. My guess is that dynamically calculating this for every folder was considered to be an unnecessary drain on resources. It is possible, however, to switch the view to "file size" mode, which gives a nice visual breakdown.

Quoted

- image and file preview in general is horrible;
I find it generally ok, but for serious pic browsing, I open the folder in Gwenview. I see nothing wrong with having applications more specialised for the purpose - there's no point in duplicating functionality.

Quoted

icons and buttons layout and ergonomy is lacking a professional view (just try to switch from detailed list to image view - I have to keep the left button pressed for a good second in order to get the scroll down list);
I'm not quite sure what you mean by this - which version of KDE are you referring to? The latest (with Kubuntu) is 4.3.2

Quoted

please do not limit the users in having icons and fonts and whatever limited with no reason. Why can i select only tiny/small/big/huge/whatever? What if I want to use konqueror as a media browser on my TV (which I do)? Oops, maximum font size is 18. Why, if I may ask?
Again, which version of KDE / Konqueror? In mine, if you go to "Settings"|"Configure Konqueror" then "File Management"|"View Modes" and choose "Custom font" in the "Font:" drop-down, you can set it to whatever you want

Quoted

icons and themes provided by enthusiasts are nice. Except that they are not professionals, are just enthusiasts.
Most of KDE is produced by "enthusiasts", but some of those are professionals as well. "Oxygen", "Air" and "Mist" are definitely professional standard. Bear in mind that a lot of them are intended for use on systems with desktop effects enabled, so may not look so polished without that. (the equivalent in Windows is to switch the effects from the default to performance - everything looks much more functional, but not unattractive)

Quoted

5) Command line plague
- I would consider a DE mature when no command line fiddling is needed for the average user.
Agreed - though one shouldn't fear the command line, it's actually one of the things that makes Linux more powerful. Microsoft are even beginning to copy it (Windows Power Shell)

Quoted

To share a folder.
Agreed

Quoted

To sync my iPOD
This is nicely integrated with Amarok (at least 1.4, I haven't quite made my mind up about Amarok 2 yet, there's a bit of the old baby/bathwater dialectic going on there)

Quoted

To launch an application.
This is straightforward enough, though does depend heavily on the developer of the application and how well it integrates with KDE - the developers of KDE have no more or less control over this than Microsoft do, but for the most part it copes quite well.

Quoted

To enable/disable my USB speakers.
On that I can't really comment, having not encountered them.

Quoted

To kill a process. And the list goes on.
This is actually better done than on Windows. Ctrl+Esc will bring up a task manager (equivalent to Ctrl+Alt+Del on Windows), but the real piece[i] de resistance[/i] is the Ctrl+Alt+Esc sequence, which turns the cursor into a rather forbidding "Jolly Roger" style symbol, which will kill the next thing you click, unless you press Esc to cancel.

Quoted

6) Front end transparency
Graphical front ends to important applications lack clarity for experienced users. I sometimes do something in the command line because I really don't know what the ticking of a well hidden check box does. Could we have sort of logging utility that translates any GUI action (when using a utility/administration tool) into the corresponding command?
This is an unfortunate consequence of the way development of most software happens - what seems intuitive and obvious to a programmer may only be so because he knows what it does. The only way to solve this is by people like yourselves telling KDE developers what they need. Microsoft get around it by having a huge (and expensive) development and testing period. The logging utility isn't a bad idea (for experienced users / those wishing to learn the command line etc.), but it won't solve the main issue. That being said, I do like the idea - I recommend posting it in its own topic so that it gets the attention.

Please don't give up on KDE 4 - it has taken a while to get off the ground, but I really love where it's going. One of my concerns was that it might be getting a bit too "dumbed-down", so much so that some of the useful customisations were being lost, but they are gradually making their way in as the whole system becomes more polished, and I think a genuine contender amongst the likes of Mac OS (insert version here - who knows really) and WIndows (certainly Vista, maybe even 7, I haven't had much of a chance to play with 7 yet)

Ollie

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "fuzzyworm" (Nov 2nd 2009, 11:43pm)


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Monday, November 2nd 2009, 11:42pm

Quoted

One thing which I forgot: why can't I set the size of the icons in the system tray applet to any size I want and have them automatically rearrange (or not) in several rows depending on their size (I think because the time was spent thinking about plasmoids)? Did you see how nice and small and neat they are on Windows? And PRACTICAL, especially when they are many and I don't want to hide them.
That seems like a good idea. My version (4.2.3) does arrange in rows, but I can't seem to find a way of controlling them, or choosing which ones to hide (if any).

5

Wednesday, November 4th 2009, 9:56am

Thank you for taking the time for answering point by point in a very clear way, Ollie.

Sorry I didn't mention: I am talking about KDE 3.5.9. You made clear about some points, so let's resume on the ones that I still have something to say. And please keep in mind that the main issue is integration, unity of design, functional specification and implementation, not solving issues point by point.

1) Folder sharing - seems i'm not the only one
2) Folder size view - I know about it being accessible through properties and about the "file size" view mode. What I was proposing is something very simple - the size of the folders is calculated only ONCE, then STORED. A background process checks which files are modified and updated the size of the parent folders and it's parents. More like the updatedb-locate mechanism (it can even be used together with locate)
3) Command line - as you say - "it shouldn't be feared". If it were not for it, I wouldn't even use Linux. The question here is - if it were not for it ( I mean - if the average user wouldn't HAVE TO use it), how many MORE would move to linux, knowing they don't have to touch something (a horrible black window, with green letters on it) that they THINK they would never understand.
4) The system tray - in KDE 3.5 you can hide whichever icons you want, but as I was complaining you cannot resize them to an arbitrary size and you cannot set the number of rows. If I understand well in KDE 4 it's even worse, you cannot even hide some icons?
5) Graphical tools logging - I'm glad that someone else thinks it would be useful
6) What about the office suite integration ? I mean a real integration - with the examples I gave as a small fraction of the overall functionality?

Thank you again for your time.