KDE-Forum.org

Knoppix is my fav! The hard drive install is really easy.

http://www.knopper.net/knoppix <- official site
www.knoppix.net <-- unofficial, more info site.
its a live cd that is easy to install and based on debian. there was a new version out today too.

gentoo

Quoted

Original von tuxnet

I never knew that gentoo was so popular, to tell you the truth I had never heard of gentoo until a few weeks ago when I was trying to help someone and I asked what distro he was running and he replied back saying gentoo. Well maybe its about time I'll try it out too.

I guess it depends very much on who you ask. In a forum like
this the ratio of people who like to tinker with things is much higher
than in the average "Linux population" or even the average computer
*user*.

Personally, I use Gentoo at home and most of the time I think
it's been a good choice (using/having used SuSE, Debian and Knoppix
in parallel/before). I wouldn't use it on a production server, though.
I don't trust it enough for that. Bleeding edge is not for production.
We're using an older SuSE version on our servers.

Gentoo is Debian for people with too much time, fast processors and a need for additonal speed ups who do not know about apt-source :wink:

Cheers,
_

Quoted

Original von anda_skoa

Gentoo is Debian for people with too much time, fast processors and a need for additonal speed ups who do not know about apt-source :wink:

Cheers,
_

I disagree. Gentoo is not Debian. And if it bears and resemblance to any package manager, it has to be FreeBSD's package management system. The optimization, configurability and customizability in Gentoo provides are absolutely lacking in Debian or any other Linux distribution I know of, with the exception of Linux from the Scratch, LFS.

I don't understand what you mean by too much time to waste, so excuse my generalization. On average package compile very quickly. Why? Well, becuase a significant proportion of the packages available in Linux are small in size. On average, most packages are between 2MB to 5MB in size. I acknowledge there are exceptions, for example, KDE, Gnome and Mozilla, to mention a few, but those are very minute.

In addition, because you are compiling a package doesn't mean you can't use your computer. In fact, the majority of Gentoo user's compile packages while browsing the internet, writing or checking mails, watching a dvd, listening to music, chatting or IRC and so on. Gentoo's kernel is intentionally optimized for CPU intensive tasks, like compiling packages, so while packages are compiling on say, Desktop 7 on konsole, one can carry out other tasks on other desktops as mentioned above.

Gentoo in a way is ahead of its time. 2 years from now, when modern CPUs and computer systems, will be capable of compiling all the KDE packages from source in less than 2 minutes. It is then users will come to release it worthless and unsafe to allow a strange entity compile packages for you, for several reasons.

1). You don't know the optimizations the entity used.
2). You don't know if the entity introduced bugs or holes into the supposed binary. [Very unlikely]
3). Codes compiled on your system and on your CPU architecture, all things being equal, should be more stable than one compiled on someone else's machine.
4). You are at liberty to choose which compiler version to use. I know some distros that still use GCC-2.9.*
5). It is psychologically satisfying, albiet sometimes a false ray of satisfaction, to make your CPU do some work, rather while away it's time 90% of it's time.
6). Compiling is fun and a sick hobby for Gents.

Althought, apt-source is great, it has its shortcoming as compared to portage, emerge, which was designed from the scratch to be a meta-source package manager. They are as follows:

SLOTS:The ability to install several version of the same package on the system in question without breaking the system, it's packages and it's packages dependencies.

USE FLAGS: The ability enable functionality of other packages in a package. e.g. USB functionality in CUPS, your Printer and your Scanner, or ALSA functionality in arts.

CFLAGS: Customizing optimizations for your for individual packages.

LDFLAGS: Further customizations for your packages.

DEPENDENCY CONTROL: The ability to control which depency to install and which not to.

MAKE DUPLICATION: The ability the deceive the compiler into think 2, 3, 4 or X amount of CPU's are present thereby speeding up the compilation time. In other words, Gentoo enables you to specify parallel makes.

As you can see, Gentoo is designed from the scratch to optimize your system for intensive CPU load and work, compilation from source. This automatically translate into an exceedingly rare breed of a purely optimized digital experience from the scratch and a wonderful and responsive desktop experience. If there is a distro that brings the best out of you machine, it has to be gentoo. The gentoo forums will introduce to numerous tips, tricks and tweaks, that will further suck the last drop of blood out of your hardware.

As many of us do not sit in front of our computer 24/7, we prefer to install large and intensive packages when we are not using the computer. For example, I usually compile kde before going to bed

emerge kde

By morning, kde will be installed and ready to be fired up. Or install mozilla before going to work or school

emerge mozilla

By the time you get back it's compiled, installed, optimized and awaits your holy command.

Thank you for allowing me rant, but the experience you'll get using gentoo and socializing with the gentoo community, the gentoo forums and IRC, is a unique Linux one. Very different from any distro I've tried, Debian inclusive. Gentoo is not Debian, portage bear little to no similarities to apt-source and how dare you say I waste my time.

Regards,

Mystilleef

Quoted

Original von Mystilleef

I don't understand what you mean by too much time to waste, so excuse my generalization. On average package compile very quickly. Why? Well, becuase a significant proportion of the packages available in Linux are small in size. On average, most packages are between 2MB to 5MB in size. I acknowledge there are exceptions, for example, KDE, Gnome and Mozilla, to mention a few, but those are very minute.

We obviously have different machines.
On my machine it takes longer to comile and install a source package than to install a precompiled one.

Quoted

In addition, because you are compiling a package doesn't mean you can't use your computer.

Yes, I know that. My computer does this the whole day, I am a software enginieer.

Quoted

Gentoo in a way is ahead of its time. 2 years from now, when modern CPUs and computer systems, will be capable of compiling all the KDE packages from source in less than 2 minutes.

Very unlikely.
It takes many hours to compile all KDE on a current single processor machine.
Am don't think computers in 2 years will be hundret times faster then the current ones or KDE will be hundret times smaller.

Quoted

1). You don't know the optimizations the entity used.
2). You don't know if the entity introduced bugs or holes into the supposed binary. [Very unlikely]
3). Codes compiled on your system and on your CPU architecture, all things being equal, should be more stable than one compiled on someone else's machine.
4). You are at liberty to choose which compiler version to use. I know some distros that still use GCC-2.9.*
5). It is psychologically satisfying, albiet sometimes a false ray of satisfaction, to make your CPU do some work, rather while away it's time 90% of it's time.
6). Compiling is fun and a sick hobby for Gents.

So, how does this differ from compiling a package on any other distro?

Quoted

Althought, apt-source is great, it has its shortcoming as compared to portage, emerge, which was designed from the scratch to be a meta-source package manager. They are as follows:

I didn't say it it is equal in all aspects, but it allows to automatically install packages from source, something users of source based distros think is unique to theirs.

Quoted

SLOTS:The ability to install several version of the same package on the system in question without breaking the system, it's packages and it's packages dependencies.

Ok, this sounds interesting.

Quoted

USE FLAGS: The ability enable functionality of other packages in a package. e.g. USB functionality in CUPS, your Printer and your Scanner, or ALSA functionality in arts.

Not sure I understand this.
One can set in some kind of system configuration how packages will be compiled?
This will then be automatically translated to configure switches when compiling the package?

Quoted

CFLAGS: Customizing optimizations for your for individual packages.

LDFLAGS: Further customizations for your packages.

You can set those on ayn system and the autoconf framework of the package will use it.

Quoted

DEPENDENCY CONTROL: The ability to control which depency to install and which not to.

ah, very nice

Quoted

MAKE DUPLICATION: The ability the deceive the compiler into think 2, 3, 4 or X amount of CPU's are present thereby speeding up the compilation time. In other words, Gentoo enables you to specify parallel makes.

Does this something more than make -j?
Sounds like make -j to me.

Quoted

Thank you for allowing me rant, but the experience you'll get using gentoo and socializing with the gentoo community, the gentoo forums and IRC, is a unique Linux one. Very different from any distro I've tried, Debian inclusive.

Would be a shame if it wheren't different.
The target user group is different, isn't it?

Quoted

Gentoo is not Debian, portage bear little to no similarities to apt-source and how dare you say I waste my time.

I never said any Gentoo user wastes his/her time.

Wasting time means that you could do something better instead.
I would be wasting my time if I would do this, you don't waste your time if this is what you want to do, which is obvioulsy the case.

Cheers,
_

Quoted

Original von anda_skoa


We obviously have different machines.
On my machine it takes longer to comile and install a source package than to install a precompiled one.

I don't dispute the fact that compiling and installing a package, KDE especially, is more time consuming than installing a package's precompiled binaries. My argument is that that notion it fast becoming a moot point as hardware become advanced, powerful and sophisticated.

Quoted

Original von anda_skoa


Yes, I know that. My computer does this the whole day, I am a software enginieer.

As a software engineer I think you'd find gentoo fascinating, especially since you compile packages the whole day. Gentoo is particulary designed for such tasks.

Quoted

Original von anda_skoa


Very unlikely.
It takes many hours to compile all KDE on a current single processor machine.
Am don't think computers in 2 years will be hundret times faster then the current ones or KDE will be hundret times smaller.

I must be smoking floppies. I apologize for my careless error. I meant to say 20 mins not 2 mins.
Hypothetical specs:-
5GHz Processor
1.2GHz FSB
1GB RAM
100GB SATA HARD DISK
I'm confident you get the picture.

Quoted

Original von anda_skoa


So, how does this differ from compiling a package on any other distro?

Very little. You begin to notice differences if you have a nack for precompiled binaries. They are convenient but not always safe, more stable or necessarily better.

Quoted

Original von anda_skoa


I didn't say it it is equal in all aspects, but it allows to automatically install packages from source, something users of source based distros think is unique to theirs.

I know several other package managers that enable a user compile packages from source. It's nothing unique to gentoo or debian. However, some are half baked attempts, while others are well designed for the source based package management. I live you to seperate the gems from the stones.

Quoted

Original von anda_skoa


Not sure I understand this.
One can set in some kind of system configuration how packages will be compiled?
This will then be automatically translated to configure switches when compiling the package?

Yes, you get the concept. More information on that here.

Quoted

Original von anda_skoa


You can set those on ayn system and the autoconf framework of the package will use it.

Absolutely. The difference, however, is that in gentoo you don't have go playing around with makefiles or the autoconf framework. In gentoo, optimizations are set system wide and will affect all source packages compiled henceforth. Future versions of portage will automatically generate the best optimizations for your system and packages.

Quoted

Original von anda_skoa


Does this something more than make -j?
Sounds like make -j to me.

Yes, it is indeed. I find it difficult explaining it to non-technically savy individuals, but undoubtedly you are well versed with computers.

Quoted

Original von anda_skoa


Would be a shame if it wheren't different.
The target user group is different, isn't it?

Not really. Any Linux user can use gentoo. However, I do admit gentoo attracts a certain breed on Linux users. They are usually, gamers, tweakers, coders, hackers and speed fanatics. Or those who just want to know what makes Linux thick, want an unbloated system, want to learn a new digital culture and want to be in control. Long compilation times have also made them patient and helpful. Visit their forums to see for yourself.

Quoted

Original von anda_skoa


I never said any Gentoo user wastes his/her time.

Wasting time means that you could do something better instead.
I would be wasting my time if I would do this, you don't waste your time if this is what you want to do, which is obvioulsy the case.

Cheers,

In that case everything is a waste of time. Since by your definition 'waste of time' is relative. In other words, it differs from individual to individual.

Regards,

Mystilleef

Quoted

Original von Mystilleef

I don't dispute the fact that compiling and installing a package, KDE especially, is more time consuming than installing a package's precompiled binaries. My argument is that that notion it fast becoming a moot point as hardware become advanced, powerful and sophisticated.

I acknowledge that compiling will become faster, but it has to be very fast or you need a slow connection until downloading and installing the binary package is slower than downloading the source and compiling and installing.

Quoted

As a software engineer I think you'd find gentoo fascinating, especially since you compile packages the whole day. Gentoo is particulary designed for such tasks.

Well, as a software engineer point of view my CPU's task is to compile my software
The main feature I chose Debian over other distros is the way how fast you can install a missing lib or devel package.
Its a matter of moment until you can continue working.

Quoted

I must be smoking floppies. I apologize for my careless error. I meant to say 20 mins not 2 mins.
Hypothetical specs:-
5GHz Processor
1.2GHz FSB
1GB RAM
100GB SATA HARD DISK
I'm confident you get the picture.

I get the picture, but I still think 20mins for the whole KDE is to short.
It would mean that one could compile KDE in about an hour using todays machines, which is not possible.

Quoted

Original von Mystilleef

Quoted

Original von anda_skoa


Not sure I understand this.
One can set in some kind of system configuration how packages will be compiled?
This will then be automatically translated to configure switches when compiling the package?

Yes, you get the concept. More information on that here.

ok, thanks for the link.

Quoted

Original von Mystilleef

Quoted

Original von anda_skoa


You can set those on ayn system and the autoconf framework of the package will use it.

Absolutely. The difference, however, is that in gentoo you don't have go playing around with makefiles or the autoconf framework. In gentoo, optimizations are set system wide and will affect all source packages compiled henceforth. Future versions of portage will automatically generate the best optimizations for your system and packages.

You don't have to play around with makefiles or the framework on other system either.
The framework automatically takes these settings into account, that's why it is so widly used.

Quoted

Original von Mystilleef

Quoted

Original von anda_skoa


Does this something more than make -j?
Sounds like make -j to me.

Yes, it is indeed. I find it difficult explaining it to non-technically savy individuals, but undoubtedly you are well versed with computers.

Ok, so we agree that this point is not different from other distributions build systems?

Quoted

Original von anda_skoa


I never said any Gentoo user wastes his/her time.

Wasting time means that you could do something better instead.
I would be wasting my time if I would do this, you don't waste your time if this is what you want to do, which is obvioulsy the case.

Cheers,

Quoted

In that case everything is a waste of time.

No!
That's why I didn't say it to be a waste of time in the first place.

Quoted

Since by your definition 'waste of time' is relative. In other words, it differs from individual to individual.

Exactly.
That's why I tried to make clear that I didn't accuse anyone of wasting time, because only the respective person know if it was a waste of time.

Cheers,
_

Quoted

Original von anda_skoa


I get the picture, but I still think 20mins for the whole KDE is to short.
It would mean that one could compile KDE in about an hour using todays machines, which is not possible.

Not to be picky or anything, but the hypothetical computer specification is five times faster than your average 2GHz machine by todays standard. Improving FSB from todays 200MHz to 1.2Ghz is quite an advancement, and that alone should drastically reduce compilation time. My 2GHz machine 266Mhz compiles KDE from source in approx 5hrs. I give that just as a base example.

Quoted

Original von anda_skoa


You don't have to play around with makefiles or the framework on other system either.
The framework automatically takes these settings into account, that's why it is so widly used.

I'm not quite sure I understand you here. To the best of my knowledge this feature is unique only to Gentoo. Even Debian doesn't implement it, for obvious reasons. I may be utterly mistaken. But I'd appreciate it if you can shed more light on which other distros use system wide customized CFLAGS, LDFLAGS and J options. Binary distros, are automatically null and void, they don't need such options.

Quoted

Original von anda_skoa


Ok, so we agree that this point is not different from other distributions build systems?

Again, that depends on what other distros you are talking about. I've used predominantly source based distros, none have given me system wide options to change this except I play around with makefiles. Or I use nasty scripts. I also never found such features when I used debian.

It's good to see the forums lively again.

Regards,

Mystilleef

Quoted

Original von Mystilleef

Quoted

Original von anda_skoa


You don't have to play around with makefiles or the framework on other system either.
The framework automatically takes these settings into account, that's why it is so widly used.

I'm not quite sure I understand you here. To the best of my knowledge this feature is unique only to Gentoo. Even Debian doesn't implement it, for obvious reasons. I may be utterly mistaken. But I'd appreciate it if you can shed more light on which other distros use system wide customized CFLAGS, LDFLAGS and J options. Binary distros, are automatically null and void, they don't need such options.

CFLAGS, LDFLAGS or MAkEFLAGS are just normal evironment variables.
If you want all software compiled on your system to use a standardizes setting, you just set them in a global file like /etc/profile
If you want them local for one user, you set them in ~/.bashrc or similar.

I have only set CFLAGS for the account I do most development in to make sure I always compile with -Wall

The point is, if you want to do it systemwide, there is nothing stopping you from doing so.

[quot]
Again, that depends on what other distros you are talking about. I've used predominantly source based distros, none have given me system wide options to change this except I play around with makefiles. Or I use nasty scripts. I also never found such features when I used debian.
[/quote]

Hmm, sounds like a bug in the makefile generation. The generator should always honor user speficied flags.

Cheers,
_

Quoted

Original von anda_skoa


CFLAGS, LDFLAGS or MAkEFLAGS are just normal evironment variables.
If you want all software compiled on your system to use a standardizes setting, you just set them in a global file like /etc/profile
If you want them local for one user, you set them in ~/.bashrc or similar.

I have only set CFLAGS for the account I do most development in to make sure I always compile with -Wall

The point is, if you want to do it systemwide, there is nothing stopping you from doing so.

A note of correction. CFLAGS, LDFLAGS and MAKEFLAGS are not environment variable. The are GCC optimization options. They are optimizations passed to the compiler during package compilations. Who ever told you they are environment variables is blatantly in error. For more information
[code:1]
man gcc
[/code:1]

To validate my point, I conducted a series of tests. I added my CFLAG optimizations to my /etc/profile file. I did a {source /etc/profile && env-update}. I then proceeded to compile 7 small packages manually, {./configure && make && make install}. All the pakages I compiled manually, ignored, the CFLAG settings stored in /etc/profile.

From my narrow understanding, the CLFAGs and MAKEFLAGS optimizations are supposed to be passed to GCC and not the environment. This from my judgement is responsible for the experiments failure. I have always been inclined towards source based distros. In my experience with all I have used, I could only customize the GCC optimizations by hacking the Makefiles in the source directory. This is the first time, I'm hearing to put the CFLAGS, LDFLAGS, and MAKEFLAGS in /etc/profile file. It doesn't work for obvious reasons.

Once again, Gentoo is the only source based distro I've used that enables a user customize all these optimization system wide. And the technique you suggested failed to work on my system. Unfortunately, I don't have debian machine to test it on. But any other viewer is welcome to prove me wrong or invalidate my stance.

Oh, and if you are really interested in all this optimization jargons, I suggest you give the Gentoo forums a visit.

Quoted

Hmm, sounds like a bug in the makefile generation. The generator should always honor user speficied flags.

See above.

Regards,

Mystilleef

Quoted

Original von Mystilleef

Quoted

Original von anda_skoa


CFLAGS, LDFLAGS or MAkEFLAGS are just normal evironment variables.
If you want all software compiled on your system to use a standardizes setting, you just set them in a global file like /etc/profile
If you want them local for one user, you set them in ~/.bashrc or similar.

I have only set CFLAGS for the account I do most development in to make sure I always compile with -Wall

The point is, if you want to do it systemwide, there is nothing stopping you from doing so.

A note of correction. CFLAGS, LDFLAGS and MAKEFLAGS are not environment variable. The are GCC optimization options. They are optimizations passed to the compiler during package compilations. Who ever told you they are environment variables is blatantly in error. For more information
[code:1]
man gcc
[/code:1]

I took my information from
[code:1]
./configure --help
[/code:1]
of a KDevelop automake framework, which says at the bottom

Quoted

Some influential environment variables:
CC C compiler command
CFLAGS C compiler flags
LDFLAGS linker flags, e.g. -L<lib dir> if you have libraries in a
nonstandard directory <lib dir>
CPPFLAGS C/C++ preprocessor flags, e.g. -I<include dir> if you have
headers in a nonstandard directory <include dir>
CPP C preprocessor
CXX C++ compiler command
CXXFLAGS C++ compiler flags
CXXCPP C++ preprocessor

I did
export CXXFLAGS="-Wall -DTESTTEST"
then
./configure
and a grep revealed that the Makefile in the source directory now contains this
[code:1]
CXXFLAGS = -Wnon-virtual-dtor -Wno-long-long -Wbad-function-cast -Wundef -Wall -pedantic -W -Wpointer-arith -Wmissing-prototypes -Wwrite-strings -ansi -D_XOPEN_SOURCE=500 -D_BSD_SOURCE -Wcast-align -Wconversion -O2 -Wall -DTESTTEST -fno-exceptions -fno-check-new
[/code:1]

It didn't use CFLAGS so, but this is a C++ project, perhaps that matters.
LDFLAGS worked.

Quoted

Original von Mystilleef

From my narrow understanding, the CLFAGs and MAKEFLAGS optimizations are supposed to be passed to GCC and not the environment.

[code:1]
export MAKEFLAGS="-j 4"
make
[/code:1]
showed imidiate results (4 jobs started parallel), seems make looks this one up itself

My guess, if this didn't work the last time you checked, is that it might depend on the version of autoconf.

Cheers,
_

where is LFS?

With these options:
Suse
RedHat
Gentoo
Mandrake
Knoppix
Debian Woody (stable)
Debian Sarge (testing)
Debian Sid (unstable)
Slackware
other

Posted on both Desktopia and devel forums.

At least to me the result would have been more interresting ;-)

Next poll; What version of KDE are you using?
Some CVS build
3.1.0
3.1.1
3.1.2
3.0.x
3.I-don't-know
2.2.2
2.2.1
2.earlier
1.*
I'm not running KDE *grin*
3.2 hahaha >:-)


Just my .02 (EUR)...

Quoted

where is LFS?

Linux from scratch.
See linuxfromscratch.org if you are interested.

Dim

Quoted

Original von Mystilleef

Quoted

Original von anda_skoa


CFLAGS, LDFLAGS or MAkEFLAGS are just normal evironment variables.
If you want all software compiled on your system to use a standardizes setting, you just set them in a global file like /etc/profile
If you want them local for one user, you set them in ~/.bashrc or similar.

I have only set CFLAGS for the account I do most development in to make sure I always compile with -Wall

The point is, if you want to do it systemwide, there is nothing stopping you from doing so.

A note of correction. CFLAGS, LDFLAGS and MAKEFLAGS are not environment variable. The are GCC optimization options. They are optimizations passed to the compiler during package compilations. Who ever told you they are environment variables is blatantly in error. For more information

Sorry, but anything defined in the shell as
SOMETHING=something
is called by defintion an environment variable (or how would they be passed to GCC?)

Being an environment variable does not mean that the shell knows what to do with it.

Have a nice day!