KDE-Forum.org

again deleted kde 4.0.2
new install this time version 10.2 11.1 in the rpm's
No new config paramaters

the desktop icons are still far to large

a wast of time and bandwith the new install


http://news.softpedia.com/news/GNOME-2-2…top-80584.shtml

Seen a review of GNOME 2.22 just a matter of time to be availeble for opensuse
Many animation options for the desktop and STABLE
Missing programs just use the kde 3.5 programs from the menu

The same way i use KDE4 just plasma and panel and KDE3.5 programs

Time will learn if it will be GNOME 2.22 or KDE4.x
And 12 month from now whe have 2 releases of GNOME and they have to stay ahead.

So kde will have to change there tune will it ever be a desktop like kde3.5.6 or GNOME will take over

1)things aren't always what ... ah nevermind:
why have so many users hard time grasping the concept of something alpha quality tagged as final; why do you completely(?) ignore the fact that it's not really final
I like that qt4 styles can actually look good now, knowing this isn't complete desktop environment yet doesn't make me sad that kwin composite effects performance sucks compared to compiz and so on ...

2)usability:
sure I hate the kickoff menu with passion, but I should give myself the benefit of the doubt - maybe the usability research that resulted in this awkward menu with scrollbars knows better (same applies to the new system settings)

1)things aren't always what ... ah nevermind:

Nevermind?? no one has ever said what KDE4 should look like
they changed icons for oxygen as i prefer Noia Warm for kde2 +,
but you can not use the kde3 icons any more they wont load.

And reading what is said about QT4 plasma seems to be waiting till the newest release
and we are kept quit with the promisse more beautiful things can happen then.

Do We Need That ???????

Make a propper system design with all what is normal for system specs in the IT

So every one can see what to expect .

And dont come with the remark this not a IT design but volunteers.

Look at Gnome no shokking things there but KDE has to compete with Vista it seems

2)usability:

With out specs usability is hardly to messure
see menu plasmoids configure-program and so on
If there had been specs like kde4 is now the were stopped the same minute they appear on the net.

So goodbey plasma plasmapanel and port kde3 to QT4 so we have a propper desktop panel menu icons.

One other remark.

We take kde3 as base for anything new "they" make.
So KDE3 are the specs for developping KDE4

See www.kde-look.org and www.kde-apps.org and not to forget XGL and Compiz

Throw this overboard and start from scratch with KDE4 , this has to lead to a total disaster.

Keep this as a precious gift and use it in KDE4 XGL COMPIZ ICONS PROGRAMS
then you are making sense,

Now with KDE4 we are back to the time off KDE2 no apps and no programs, killing nearly 10 years off hard work by numerous volunteers.

Quoted

Originally posted by susegebr
One other remark.

We take kde3 as base for anything new "they" make.
So KDE3 are the specs for developping KDE4

See www.kde-look.org and www.kde-apps.org and not to forget XGL and Compiz

Throw this overboard and start from scratch with KDE4 , this has to lead to a total disaster.

Keep this as a precious gift and use it in KDE4 XGL COMPIZ ICONS PROGRAMS
then you are making sense,

Now with KDE4 we are back to the time off KDE2 no apps and no programs, killing nearly 10 years off hard work by numerous volunteers.

what does "specs" mean? Can you write so that non-technical kde users understand.
Compiz didn't integrate well into kde3.5, I don't see the issue why kwin couldn't have it's own compositing.
Applications are ported to kde4, look at amarok for example.
Old icon themes - shouldn't be very hard task to make them compatible with kde4.

Quoted

Originally posted by susegebrDo We Need That ???????

I can drag one window on top of another window around the screen randomly without it leaving long traces at last, FFS YES I DO WANT IT.
Good luck on competing against gnome with noia icons and qt3.

"Specs" are the specifications off a program

What is the input

What is the output

What and how is the proces between input en output

For programs with screens you have to specify the number of screens
and for each screen what is the "input" and "output" and "proces" for every item in that screen.
and so on.

The normal proces to come from a idea to a program on pc's and terminals hooked to a mainframe

As is kde4 its an idea, the library qt4 is changing great to make a stable program,
they have designed the beginning and the end
plasma and the panel the begin and the end
now they are fillingin the missing parts in between , right click on the panel and choose config panel. rightclick on the desk top and choose config desktop

I can go on to specify the hole kde4, but there has to be a final design for kde3 use that

For a KDE forum user group im really surprised at how simple minded some of you can be. The idea of KDE 4 isnt to slap on some new glossy paint and call it a new car. In KDE 4 not only is the look much more sophisticated (personally Ive always hated the old third grader look of some of the older unmodified KDE apps and controls, especially the panel). But really thats just the cream at the top.

The real reason why KDE 4 was needed as a serious rewrite and rework was the basic OS and computer operations and interactions that before were often thrown together and didnt provide any all in one wrapper for hardware interaction or driver support or different language ports. With KDE 4, not only will hardware(including plugin devices like usb and external hard drives, headphones, etc.) be better controlled using Solid but the new media system phonon will make the nightmare that is multimedia hell in linux into a much simpler process for both the users and application developers. I could write more about both of those programs but Ill just suggest that you google them yourselves and read about how they will improve KDE for the better.

And Plasma itself has been severely unappreciated for some of its biggest contributions (or potential contributions) than it deserves. Its not done yet, but already its set some pretty amazing groundwork. Plasma basically acts very much like containment fields, which is why it works so well with widgets, because basically the desktop is just a giant widget containment area itself. This definitely changes how we interact and can think of the desktop.

And with changes to Qt4 new definitions of interoperability are defined. Not that it suddenly makes everything from Mac and Windows work on Linux, but it will makes it a hell of alot easier to port Qt apps from those OSs onto Plasma (such as the OS X widget support) and with very little code changes programs written for plasma will be able to be ported from KDE to Windows or Mac(or even ran natively in the KDE4 environment on Operating Systems not Unix based).

EDIT: Almost forgot to mention. I cant stand the KDE4 Kicker main menu. Who would thinking clicking and scrolling a million times to find anything would be an improvement? But Im sure a new Menu could be quite easily written and if not done in the KDE release then Ill keep my eyes open for new community packages that will substitute my kicker menu for something better.

Shit! I didnt even mention Nepomuk integration. Can u imagine a common tagging and ratings database for different applications? KDE can! This will allow for more intelligent searching indexing, making it possible to find all files tagged with a certain tag, such as finding a file named "giugyigf" just by typing in wallpaper if you had tagged the file with wallpaper in dolphin. I mean who wants to search for "giugyigf" or find the directory like you would have to do on other desktop search engines. Plus this way you could tag all of your wallpapers and then do a search for wallpaper and receive the results for all the wallpapers you have on your computer(or even internet and external devices, music, mail, and instant messages all sorted) regardless of different file directories or file names. This could work with metadata tags in audio as well. So you could potentially search or filter for specific music genres from your desktop search just like some of the more popular audio players implement. The potential is crazy and brings us one more step closer to menu-less computing.

this new menu is supposedly an usability improvement over older one

there are other search programs.

I use xapian as backend and recoll as search frontend.
Works great and you are not deppending on kde3/4

Quoted

Originally posted by Supreme1012
For a KDE forum user group im really surprised at how simple minded some of you can be. The idea of KDE 4 isnt to slap on some new glossy paint and call it a new car. In KDE 4 not only is the look much more sophisticated (personally Ive always hated the old third grader look of some of the older unmodified KDE apps and controls, especially the panel). But really thats just the cream at the top.

For me being a Gentoo user I can run both KDE3 or KDE4 on the same machine simply by changing one line in /etc/init.d/xdm. I have forced myself to use KDE4 solely for two weeks solid and I got to say it is about useless for me at this point. The concepts it presents interrupts workflow enough to be totally annoying. All the while it is released as an "RC" which it isn't even close. Add to that all that you get from the developers is, "that will be implemented later" and it is a no brainer why so many hate it.

Quoted

Originally posted by Supreme1012
The real reason why KDE 4 was needed as a serious rewrite and rework was the basic OS and computer operations and interactions that before were often thrown together and didnt provide any all in one wrapper for hardware interaction or driver support or different language ports. With KDE 4, not only will hardware(including plugin devices like usb and external hard drives, headphones, etc.) be better controlled using Solid but the new media system phonon will make the nightmare that is multimedia hell in linux into a much simpler process for both the users and application developers. I could write more about both of those programs but Ill just suggest that you google them yourselves and read about how they will improve KDE for the better.

While I tend to agree that the old codebase was / is a mess and needs loads of work, I don't agree with the philosophy of dumbing down the interface simply to satisfy the unwashed masses. I don't want to have my hand held like a 3 year old as I do tasks I have been doing for well over 20 years on a computer. The elimination of "advanced" settings was one of the most frustrating experiences of KDE4. That and having to scroll through menus or go 2-3 levels deep in a control panel to get to what I wanted then having to back out of it to get somewhere else in the config. That is retarded thinking if you ask me.

Quoted

Originally posted by Supreme1012
And Plasma itself has been severely unappreciated for some of its biggest contributions (or potential contributions) than it deserves. Its not done yet, but already its set some pretty amazing groundwork. Plasma basically acts very much like containment fields, which is why it works so well with widgets, because basically the desktop is just a giant widget containment area itself. This definitely changes how we interact and can think of the desktop.

Plasma is a stinking pile at this point. Even their website says "nothing here yet" for most of their sections. Why on earth the developers felt plasma was the way to go is beyond me. Worse, there is no way of disabling it that I have been able to find. That is arrogance above and beyond to me and something which will prevent me from using KDE4 in its current form.

Quoted

Originally posted by Supreme1012
And with changes to Qt4 new definitions of interoperability are defined. Not that it suddenly makes everything from Mac and Windows work on Linux, but it will makes it a hell of alot easier to port Qt apps from those OSs onto Plasma (such as the OS X widget support) and with very little code changes programs written for plasma will be able to be ported from KDE to Windows or Mac(or even ran natively in the KDE4 environment on Operating Systems not Unix based).

That is why god created emulation. If I wanted to run a Windows program I would have bought Windows. Same for OS X. Here's a novel idea. How about concentrating on being KDE and NOT Vista or OS X? Plasma is simply an "I want to be them" thing. Try being unique for a change and making a workflow that is actually workable instead of what Plasma is.

Quoted

Originally posted by Supreme1012
EDIT: Almost forgot to mention. I cant stand the KDE4 Kicker main menu. Who would thinking clicking and scrolling a million times to find anything would be an improvement? But Im sure a new Menu could be quite easily written and if not done in the KDE release then Ill keep my eyes open for new community packages that will substitute my kicker menu for something better.

So instead of KDE implementing a sane menu from the start, you are recommending having a 3rd party implementation? Hmmm...

Quoted

Originally posted by Supreme1012
Shit! I didnt even mention Nepomuk integration. Can u imagine a common tagging and ratings database for different applications? KDE can! This will allow for more intelligent searching indexing, making it possible to find all files tagged with a certain tag, such as finding a file named "giugyigf" just by typing in wallpaper if you had tagged the file with wallpaper in dolphin. I mean who wants to search for "giugyigf" or find the directory like you would have to do on other desktop search engines. Plus this way you could tag all of your wallpapers and then do a search for wallpaper and receive the results for all the wallpapers you have on your computer(or even internet and external devices, music, mail, and instant messages all sorted) regardless of different file directories or file names. This could work with metadata tags in audio as well. So you could potentially search or filter for specific music genres from your desktop search just like some of the more popular audio players implement. The potential is crazy and brings us one more step closer to menu-less computing.

Personally, I can't stand Dolphin either. Give me Konqueror and I have the world. Give me Dolphin and I have a limp fish that can't handle something as simple as moving files about. Also, I have no wish and no need for "menuless" computing. Having everything on the desktop is a rotten idea that leads to clutter and poor workflow. Ever see a typical Windows user's desktop? The secretary at work is one of those users. They tend to pile 10,000 icons on the desktop and are lost with or without them. Forcing users into that pigeon hole is a good way to lose those users. KDE had better watch its step or it will achieve just that if it forces users down that road.

some info about kickoff

Quoted

The team didn't like the standard KDE menu anymore, both its design (eg the recently/most used application section at top) as its lacking functionality compared to other modern start menus (eg desktop search). Another opinion was that starting your every-day applications not found on the panel was both too complicated and required too many mouse clicks.

With this start menu research we also hope to enrich the on-going discussion how the start menu of KDE 4 should look like.

KDE4 is a kde on steroids it over the top as it has to compete with Vista so an interview with Aaron Seigo said KDE on windows and OS/X for the use of Kontakt to kill windows outlook and ..............
http://www.computerworlduk.com/community…d=643&blogid=17
And we can ask how free are the kde4 hackers who work for Trolltech in their choises for KDE on Linux??

So we better keep QT3 - KDE3 and ask Trolltech to update QT3 with usefull things
So we never download KDE4 and boycot the distros with KDE4 who ditch KDE3

Quoted

Originally posted by antaresMy first steps after installing KDE4 were to personalize the panels. In 3.5, I have two panels, one on the top with the menu and the applets, and one on the bottom, with the task manager and, an icon to show the desktop and the virtual desktops. I've been many years working with this configuration, and in kde4 I can do none of those things.

This is the source of my most bitter disappointment too, I'm afraid. I normally work with a different configuration from yours, but it sounds somewhat similar, with two panels. KDE4's kicker replacement has no child panels, no grab bars to move things around, no move options on the right click menus to move things around, apparently no way to add icons for anything, and all of my usual taskbar applets are missing, so I have no dictionary, no KSysGuard mini monitor, no world clock, no color picker, or character selector. I can't even figure out how to change the color. It's extremely Spartan, and this fact above all makes KDE4 feel so much like GNOME that it makes me despair. I don't even see any indication that I should expect major progress in any of these areas for 4.1.

It really is a bitter disappointment, and I sincerely hope this is just a symptom of KDE4 being so immature, rather than KDE trying to become GNOME or OS-X.

I'm afraid it's a real crisis for me in figuring out what to do from here. I've been advocating that we port Rosegarden to KDE4, rather than pulling back from all the KDE classes, and doing a pure QT4 port. I've been the only one arguing for that, and I used to believe very strongly that it was the right thing to do. Now I'm not sure anymore. KDE4 is horrible, I'm sorry to have to say in the face of what I know has been a monumental effort on the part of its developers. I don't know if I will still be using or caring about KDE after this, so I don't know if Rosegarden continuing to exist as a KDE application is important to me now or not.

It's depressing, and it's really all about the panel thingie that replaced Kicker. Since I still have KDE3 on this box, if I run Kicker on it, all is well with the universe. Mostly.

I'd really like some reassurance that the current state is just immaturity, and that I can hope to have my old bottom of the screen configuration back. It is really my operational center, where I keep track of everything, and this feature is something that has been unique to KDE, and one of the reasons I have persisted with Linux for so long, in spite of the frustration. I haven't been able to find that reassurance, but I did stumble across this place to bitch about the current state of things, so I have engaged in bitching instead.

I guess the next step, I'll check out SVN and see how things are looking there. I guess I should have already done that, before commencing with the pointless and probably futile bitching.

But sometimes bitching just feels good. Releasing with the bottom of the screen thingie (I keep forgetting the new name) in this totally useless state. WTF were they thinking?

Letting steam off has results

KDE4.0.3 has in the end a transparent panel
you have to configure the desktop with theme "slim-glow"
in System settings - desktop-effects - all-effects change translucency to 100 35 100
that is from top to bottom

You can position all the panel icons where ever you want even system-tray

there are some new widgets more fun than usefull

so to monitor your system you still have to use GKRELLM a gnome app.
Kopete still cant use the live messenger (vista) emoticons so is useless
Kwifimanager no kde4 version wich acts the same

In kde4.0.2 it started Knemo kde4.0.3 nothing

Kpackage dus not install even with smart installed. useless
Ark says its extracting but no map in the given directory. useless
Webkam is not working useless
The audio players are giving a flat sound (XINE ??) using XMMS is ok as always.
DV video editing the app is not working KINO does.


So for FUN kde 3.0.4 is nice toy you can play with it
in the real world its a hole other game
hardly any app is working without flaws.

Like most of the posters here, I've tried to like KDE 4 (because I LOVE KDE 3) but I just can't do it. The menu, kickoff, is the primary culprit. Over and over again I hear the KDE devs citing a "user study" but no one seems to actually have a copy of it. It seems to me that the menu is geared toward the "newbie" contingent. But, no one is a "newbie" for very long, so chasing that demographic seems counter-productive to me. There is an afterthought "kmenu like" menu but you can't edit it. I don't know what happens when you want to add your own menu entries.

Another problem is that konqueror uses the dolphin kpart for file browsing. So, many of dolphin's weaknesses are transplanted to konqueror (no audio previews, for example).

These are the two biggies for me. There are numerous other smaller problems that plague the desktop but these are the showstoppers for me. I suppose that I will cling to KDE 3 as long as I can, but I fear that I will be forced to go to KDE 4 or miss important software and security updates. I just hope that by that time the most egregious problems have been repaired and that enough user complaints will convince the developers to add the features that we need.

KDE4 isn't all completely terrible - one example being that you've all picked on the new Kmenu. Erm...




If you really want (for some unexplicitly given reason), you can even have the two menus side-by-side (again, god knows why you'd want that, but...)

And I didn't see much difference between kde 3.5.8 system settings and kde 4... though I expect you're referring to an earlier version of KDE then I have used.

Although, that said:-
1. adding widgets is painful [I'm glad they added their own (somewhat) stable composition effects though, that even allow me to use 3D programs without them going black every time I click];
2. I want to be able to configure the task manager to have 2 rows all the time;
3. I'm depending on KDE3's knetworkmanager program to connect to the internet because the network tab in system settings is useless (as with other programs - in fact, I was certain there was a kde4 version of kphotoalbum but synaptic seems to have lost it);
4. I want to be able to get rid of Dolphin all together and use konqueror universally, but KDE4-core is dependent on Dolphin and not the other way round;
5. If you resize the panel too small, the kmenu button drops down through the bottom and ends up at the top (which is where the kmenu appears when you then click the button).

Still, I like the new, "run command" dialog, the fact that you can resize the menu to scroll less, can do a vague search for programs that do the job you want (searching, "photo" brings up, "kphotoalbum" which I didn't even know existed, for example) and the fact that I can put things from the panel to the desktop and vice versa (such as the pager).

All in all, it's very incomplete - I'd like to be able to edit the Kmenu and use entirely kde4 applications, and configure the panel as I want (oh, and I'd like if desktop icons were their own thing instead if widgets), but I also like the idea of an implemented desktop, like swapping things from the panel to the desktop and back, and built-in composition effects.

I can even go as far as to say I like it - but I would also like to see it improved.

Sorry to double-post, but I just saw the most stupid thing I think I've ever seen -
"Kopete still cant use the live messenger (vista) emoticons so is useless"

What?
So it's useless because, even though you can talk to people from around the world using about 15 different messenger services, it can't display every emoticon known to man?

I can only hope to God this isn't the smartest in the forum...

Coming from Europe Holland they only use Windows there en Live messenger
and there is a smal linux group

Here on Curacao Linux is hardley known All windows XP

To keep in touch you have to use Amsn thats the linux messenger working like the windows thing.

You have the same emoticons animated and with sound
You use a webcam
In the next release you have audio conversation

This version is 0.98B so nothing new on the block

As far as i know off no other messenger offers this

That doesn't make Kopete useless. ¬_¬

For example, I prefer if my conversations aren't littered with emots thank you. I like to be able to read what the person is writing.